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Feral Ferment@<a href="https://hachyderm.io/@hrefna" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Hrefna (DHC)</a> <blockquote>If your server disappeared tomorrow with no ability to export your follower graph, how would you rebuild it? If you do a server move, what happens to your post history?</blockquote> Widespread adoption of Nomadic Identity, if it ever happens, may help with this. I am sure you already know this, but for other readers, these two 2017 articles explain how Nomadic Identity works in Hubzilla, which is based on the Nomad/Zot protocol. #^<a class="" href="https://medium.com/@tamanning/nomadic-identity-brought-to-you-by-hubzilla-67eadce13c3b" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://medium.com/@tamanning/nomadic-identity-brought-to-you-by-hubzilla-67eadce13c3b</a> #^<a class="" href="https://medium.com/@tamanning/getting-started-with-nomadic-identity-how-to-create-a-personal-channel-on-hubzilla-7d9666a428b" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://medium.com/@tamanning/getting-started-with-nomadic-identity-how-to-create-a-personal-channel-on-hubzilla-7d9666a428b</a> Mike Macgirvin recently got Nomadic Identity working on ActivityPub too. #^<a class="" href="https://fediversity.site/item/b69ce5a0-0c22-4933-8393-dce7100f4584" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://fediversity.site/item/b69ce5a0-0c22-4933-8393-dce7100f4584</a> Unfortunately, the ActivityPub world keeps pretending that Mike Macgirvin and his work does not exist (Nomadic Identity has been around and working in Hubzilla for roughly a decade). There's also OpenWebAuth (Federated Single Sign On). As Sean Tilley explains in this March 2024 article, Nomadic Identity and OpenWebAuth together can enable network resilience, censorship resistance, and ease of migration. #^<a class="" href="https://wedistribute.org/2024/03/activitypub-nomadic-identity/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wedistribute.org/2024/03/activitypub-nomadic-identity/</a> No idea whether Nomadic Identity, OpenWebAuth, conversation containers, etc. will ever get widespread adoption. At present, the user base of software such as Hubzilla, Forte etc. (which have these features) is negligible. And at least in case of Hubzilla (which I am using), the UI and UX needs a lot of work; don't know about Forte (which is based on ActivityPub). And yes, all the other problems with the Fediverse that you listed will still remain. At this point, I doubt if the Fedi will ever become socially and politically relevant. #<a class="" href="https://klacker.org/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://klacker.org/search?tag=ATProto" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ATProto</a> #<a class="" href="https://klacker.org/search?tag=Nomad" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Nomad</a> #<a class="" href="https://klacker.org/search?tag=Zot" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Zot</a> #<a class="" href="https://klacker.org/search?tag=NomadicIdentity" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">NomadicIdentity</a> #<a class="" href="https://klacker.org/search?tag=OpenWebAuth" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">OpenWebAuth</a> #<a class="" href="https://klacker.org/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Fediverse</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://io.waxandleather.com/@alisynthesis" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Alison Wilder</a> Because if you want full-blown user rights and all the same features as a local user on all over 30,000 Fediverse instances, you need a local user account on each one of them. This means two things: <ul><li>If you come over to the Fediverse for the first time, and you register your first account on Mastodon, you automatically also register an account on 30,000+ more instances.</li><li>If you decide to host your own instance of whatever, and you spin it up for the first time, your instance immediately creates tens of millions of user accounts. One for everyone who has ever joined the Fediverse. Because anyone may decide to come over to your instance and use it, just like so.</li></ul> For one, this is utter overkill. Besides, this is technologically impossible. This would require all Fediverse instances to know all other Fediverse instances. With no exceptions. Like, if I start up my own (streams) instance for the first time, and half a second later, someone on the other side of the globe starts up a Gancio instance, they would immediately have to know each other. And all the other instances in the Fediverse. And, of course, it would require a newly-launched instance to know all Fediverse users. Again, with no exception. How and from which source are they supposed to know? That said, there is a single sign-on system for the Fediverse. It's called <a href="https://magicsignon.org/page/openwebauth/home" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">OpenWebAuth</a>. It was created by @<a class="" href="https://fediversity.site/channel/mikedev" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mike Macgirvin 🖥️</a> (creator of Friendica and all its descendants) in the late 2010s already for now-defunct <a href="https://joinfediverse.wiki/The_Zotlabs_projects#Zap" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Zap</a>, a fork (of a fork?) of <a href="https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> which, in turn, is a fork of the currently hyped Facebook alternative <a href="https://joinfediverse.wiki/Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Friendica</a>. It was backported to Hubzilla in 2020. Everything that came after Zap, including the still existing <a href="https://joinfediverse.wiki/(streams)" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">streams repository</a>, got it, too. However, first of all, OpenWebAuth is only fully implemented on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte. Plus, it has client-side support on Friendica. This means that Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte recognise logins on all four, but Friendica doesn't recognise logins from anywhere. As for Mastodon, OpenWebAuth implementation was actually developed to the point of an official merge request in Mastodon's GitHub repository. As far as I know, it was rejected. Mastodon won't implement OpenWebAuth, full stop. Besides, it doesn't give you all the same power as a local user. You can't log into Friendica, go to a Hubzilla hub and create a wiki or a webpage or a CalDAV calendar, just like so. OpenWebAuth is only for guest permissions. Because on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, permissions are everything. For example, let's assume you have an account and a channel on (streams). Let's also assume that your (streams) channel and this Hubzilla channel of mine here are connected. Furthermore, let's assume that I've decided to only allow my own full connections to see my profile. If you're logged out, and you go to my profile page, you see nothing. But then you log in. And you come back to my profile page (provided your browser is configured so that the Hubzilla hub that I call home is allowed to create cookies). My home hub recognises your login on (streams). It identifies you as you, as one of my contacts. Thus, it identifies you as someone who is permitted to see my profile. And all of a sudden, you see my profile. That, for example, is what OpenWebAuth is for. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Zap" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Zap</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=SingleSignOn" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">SingleSignOn</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=OpenWebAuth" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">OpenWebAuth</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://social.coop/users/J12t" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Johannes Ernst</a> <blockquote>same account for multiple instances</blockquote> This in its pure, nomadic form and with proven stability is only available on Hubzilla and (streams) anyway. They're also the only ones whose instances can detect off-site users' logins and grant them rights that other visitors don't have, provided said off-site users are on either of the two or Friendica. All thanks to OpenWebAuth. @<a class="" href="https://fediversity.site/channel/mikedev" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mike Macgirvin 🖥️</a>, creator of all three and maintainer of the streams repository, is currently working on implementing nomadic identity and (streams)' set of permissions using nothing but ActivityPub so it can become available to everything else in the Fediverse as well. <blockquote>share to fediverse</blockquote> I'm not quite sure, but I think @<a href="https://stefanbohacek.online/@stefan" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Stefan Bohacek</a> or someone who commented on one of his posts has figured out how to share at least to Hubzilla. However, actual share buttons are all geared only towards Mastodon and hit-and-miss at best when it comes to anything else. The less something is like Mastodon, the less they work with it. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NomadicIdentity" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">NomadicIdentity</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=OpenWebAuth" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">OpenWebAuth</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ShareButton" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ShareButton</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ShareButtons" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ShareButtons</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a class="" href="https://mastodon.social/@bobwyman" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Bob Wyman</a> For starters, everything I've listed is not only part of the #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Fediverse</a>, but bi-directionally federated with #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mastodon</a>. So there's little to do with regards to establishing interoperability in the first place. Beyond that: You can't blindly write a mobile app for these projects without knowing these projects in the first place. They aren't all Twitter-like microblogging services. You need to know that these projects exist. You need to know how they work. You need to know their features. You need to know their specific APIs if they have any. Also, #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Friendica</a> and #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> aren't even native #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> platforms. They have ActivityPub bolted-on as applications. On Hubzilla, you as a user even have to activate ActivityPub on your channel(s). Friendica uses its own protocol internally, #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=DFRN" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">DFRN</a>, which, along with Friendica, was created eight years before ActivityPub was established as a standard. Hubzilla was created around a protocol named #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Zot" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Zot</a> which was invented in 2011 and introduced a concept named #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NomadicIdentity" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">NomadicIdentity</a>. I can't see ActivityPub being expanded to everything that Hubzilla's current #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Zot6" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Zot6</a> can do, much less everything that its direct successor, #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Nomad" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Nomad</a>, used by #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Streams</a>, can do. Also, if you wanted to standardise Hubzilla's full feature set in ActivityPub so that app developers can create a mobile app for Hubzilla without ever having seen Hubzilla, you'd have to blow that standard up to gigantic proportions. Since you obviously have never heard of it, let me list up some of its features: <ul><li>cross-instance authorisation via #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=OpenWebAuth" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">OpenWebAuth</a> (which really only makes sense in a Web browser) </li><li>multiple separate channels per user account with separate identities, each with multiple profiles à la Friendica which can assigned to individual users or privacy groups </li><li>nomadic identity; not only easy moving of channels to other instances, but real-time mirroring of individual channels between multiple instances </li><li>fine-grained privacy/access rights control through both channel roles and pre-definable sets of contact roles </li><li>posts can have an almost unlimited number of characters; formatting is possible through the full standard set of BBcode plus Hubzilla-specific extensions, some of which tie into Zot/OpenWebAuth </li><li>additional long-form writing support through articles which support the same BBcode set </li><li>support for simple webpages which support the same BBcode set plus Markdown plus HTML </li><li>built-in wiki engine which supports BBcode and Markdown plus individual edit access control for other users/channels </li><li>built-in file server with WebDAV support and individual access rights control per directory </li><li>image gallery which can tie into the file server </li><li>public calendar inherited from Friendica </li><li>secondary calendar engine with variable access control for other users/channels and CalDAV support </li><li>address book with CardDAV support </li><li>ca. 55 built-in per-channel applications, most of which are optional </li><li>etc.</li></ul> Let me put it this way: Hubzilla is something which, at its current state, can barely be harnessed in a desktop browser with a hardware mouse, a hardware keyboard and a 20+" display. I can't see Hubzilla's full set of features be made accessible in a mobile app, much less more easily than on the desktop. If you really want to have all features from all Fediverse platforms standardised in ActivityPub, then ActivityPub would end up with three different calendar implementations alone, two of which Hubzilla uses (and they aren't connected to one another in any way), the third being that used by #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mobilizon" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mobilizon</a>. Besides, I can't even see long-form blogging working on mobile phones. Apps for writing articles on #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Plume" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Plume</a>, #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=WriteFreely" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">WriteFreely</a> or Hubzilla's article application don't make much sense without a hardware keyboard. Not to mention that Plume, WriteFreely and Hubzilla have different implementations of long-form blog post writing.

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